News and Commentary [1996-03]




Re: Moxon Dumped [Pamela Fitzpatrick, 05 Dec 1996]

Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 12:01:09 -0600
From: p.fitz@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Moxon Dumped
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Message-ID: <849806698.21541@dejanews.com>
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In article <584mp3$og4@netaxs.com>,
rkeller@netaxs.com (Rod Keller) wrote:
> 
> Pamela Fitzpatrick (p.fitz@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> : The question I have is were the assests _actually_ sold? The name and 
> : logo if I recall were reported by the national media as purchased by a 
> : Scientologist representing private entities. The CONFIDENTIAL files are 
> : still up in the air from all reports. So, the second question is in 
> : regards to the "fund raising". Just where is this money going and who 
> : actually benefits? Scientology _owns_ the CAN trademark, name and all 
> : that, right? So, how can you be having a "fundraiser" for CAN and not 
> : have it be associated with the Scientologist fronted purchase? With all 
> : the national publicity that has been generated about this story, why 
> : hasn't this change of events regarding the dumping of Mr. Scott's lawyer 
> : hit the national media? I request that the anticipated reply be only 
> : posted in public. Any private email sent to me in regards to this matter 
> : will be subject to public posting.
> 
> The previous post was quoting a statemeny by attorney Graham Berry. This
> reply is just based on my own opinions. I don't think the transfer is a
> done deal. The judge can probably re-assign the trademarks, etc. to
> whomever s/he chooses. Will CAN rise like Phoenix from the ashes under the
> same name? Or will it now be the Cult Information Exchange Network, or
> Families Against Cults? I don't know, I'm hoping the CAN name survives.
> But I think if they avoid having the files and mailing lists fall into
> cult hands, it will be a major victory. The loss of a logo is a small
> battle compared with damaging information about all sorts of victims going
> to the Scientologists <spit>. 
> 
> I can't imagine under any circumstances that people would raise money for
> Scientology thinking it was the real CAN.
> 
> -- 
> Rod Keller / rkeller@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
> Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / Golden Gate Bridge Club
> The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Kha Khan countdown: 9 to go
> Killer Rod / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully

Thank you for your reply. I had to go the backdoor because this had dropped off 
my server so I apologize for the delay. 

I think it would be a good idea to find out if the transfer _has_ been a done 
deal or not in regards to the trademark et al. I too hope that the CAN name 
survives, I just have some very uncomfortable thoughts about the timing of the 
press release, the request for solicitation of funds and now the new revised 
press release that omits the solitation request. This new press release was 
posted today. 

The circumstance I see about the fund raising is Scientology raising money for 
itself using the good name of CAN - I already know some people will disagree 
with that statement, just done to emphasize the point not necessarily a personal 
belief!!!

And I also agree about the confidential files, these do not belong to anyone 
other then the original receiver - CAN. The trademark is a small battle in 
comparison to the files, but at the same time the solicitation for funds is not 
a small matter considering the feelings (pro and con) about Scientology. Along 
with the fact that it is _not_ clear just what is happening with the court 
ruling on the bankruptcy, the courts say one thing - the papers report a story - 
now we have the "press release" X2. 

Hopefully someone out there can answer these questions (without the 
numerous posts that caused Mr. Keller's reply to my questions being bumped off 
my system...).

Once again, please do not send me only private email in response to my posting. 
Any and all emails will be subject to public posting at my discretion.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

CAN Mirror Page Index






Moxon not dumped quite yet [Rod Keller, 11 Dec 1996]

From: rkeller@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Moxon not dumped quite yet
Date: 11 Dec 1996 01:33:04 GMT
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I got this from Graham Berry. I hope he never sends me confidential stuff,
unless he marks it clearly as such.

---begin---

It is true that Moxon is Scott's attorney still-partially. Thanks to Moxon
keeping Jason in the dark, he was not aware of CANS pending appeal in the
ninth circuit court of appeals. Jasons brief is due on 12/26/96. Since
Moxon got a good trial court result, knows the applicable facts, law and
arguments - and has the greatest motive to see the judgment stand. I
decided to leave him in place for the very limited purpose of briefing and
arguing the appeal. Any communication with Jason must be through me. I am
monitoring his work - so he is being supervised by an SP! All other
matters are being handled by me.

I believe that after Moxon won the judgment at the trial court level he
developed the most outrageous coflicts of interest resulting in a huge
potential legal malpractice law suit by Jason against Moxon, and maybe the
trustee too.

-- 
Rod Keller / rkeller@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / Golden Gate Bridge Club
The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Kha Khan countdown: 9 to go
Killer Rod / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully

CAN Mirror Page Index





Re: CAN: It's Role in WACO. [Jeff Jacobsen, 10 Dec 1996]

From: cultxpt@primenet.com
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: CAN: It's Role in WACO.
Date: 10 Dec 1996 14:08:01 -0700
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nobody@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald) wrote:


   Normally I don't care about this Dead Agenting crap, but this one
has so much misinformation that I want to respond.

>As an agency of the Treasury Department, BATF does not work under such
>restrictions.  Both agencies are free to investigate groups suspected of
>engaging in criminal activity.

>Once an investigation is underway, most government agencies, including
>BATF and the FBI, seem willing to receive information from such groups as
>the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (ADL) and the Cult Awareness
>Network (CAN).  These groups, and others like them, clearly have their own
>agendas.  
   Name me a group that doesn't have an agenda.

>They keep copious files of biased and prejudicial information on
>private individuals and organizations and share these with law
>enforcement.
Biased does not equal untruthful, you know.  I'm biased against
Scientology, but I have never lied about them.
[adl stuff snipped]
>[23]

>CAN critics point out that so-called "mind control" techniques are not
>much different than the techniques used in education and socialization
>efforts used by all schools, churches, ideologies and philosophies.

  I highly recommend the book Influence, by Robert Cialdini. It shows
how people can be manipulated in all forms of life.  To me, the mind
control model is just aimed at instances and groups where manipulative
techniques are being used in a concentrated manner.  Or are you
denying there is such a thing as manipulation?

>According to CAN critic Dr. Gordon Melton of the Institute for the Study
>of Religion in Santa Barbara, California, CAN has used a number of means
>to try to destroy small religious groups: they unsuccessfully tried to
>expand "conservatorship" to allow families to remove members from "cults";
>they unsuccessfully tried to have laws passed against "cults"; they
>unsuccessfully sued the American Psychological Association for rejecting
>their views on "brainwashing."  However, they have found one successful
>method of disrupting groups: false anonymous charges of child abuse.
>Anonymous reports are legal under current law.
  J. Gordon Melton, I heard, went to Japan to support that great
religion known as Aum Shin Rikyo.  You know, the guys who confessed to
gassing thousands in Japan, and killing many of its own members?  Good
ol' J. Gordon sure knows a bad group when he sees one, huh?

>[24]

>Priscilla Coates, former executive director of CAN, told reporters, "I
>know how these types of groups work and the children are always abused."

>[25]

>CAN has been on a crusade against the Christian religious group The
>Children of God, known in the United States as "The Family."  CAN alleges
>the group practices indiscriminate sex, including with children.
   I have seen many COG pamphlets, and they do indeed advocate sexual
promiscuity.

snip]
>[28]

>Deprogramming often includes kidnapping individuals, subjecting them to
>sleep and food deprivation, ridicule and humiliation, and even physical
>abuse and restraint until they promise to leave the alleged cult.  Because
>deprogrammers usually involve family members in these kidnappings and
>deprogrammings, victims rarely press charges.  However, in the last few
>years 5 deprogrammers have been prosecuted for kidnapping or "unlawful
>imprisonment."  One such deprogrammer is Rick Ross, a convicted jewel
>thief, who has boasted of more than 200 "deprogrammings."  CAN executive
>director Cynthia Kisser has praised him as being "among the half dozen
>best deprogrammers in the country."  In the summer of 1993 Rick Ross was
>indicted in Washington state for unlawful imprisonment.
  Rick was found not guilty at trial.

>Nancy Ammerman, a Visiting Scholar at Princeton University's Center for
>the Study of American Religion, was one of the outside experts assigned by
>the Justice Department to evaluate BATF and FBI's handling of the Branch
>Davidians.  She was particularly critical of Rick Ross and the Cult
>Awareness Network.  "Although these people often call themselves `cult
>experts,' they are certainly not recognized as such by the academic
>community.  The activities of the CAN are seen by the National Council of
>Churches (among others) as a danger to religious liberty, and
>deprogramming tactics have been increasingly found to be outside the law.

   Ms. Ammerman spoke here at Arizona State University not long ago.
I tried to talk to her about her strange notion that ex-cult members
are not to be believed because they skew their testimonies of how bad
cult life was.  I suggested to her that perhaps the FBI should no
longer use the testimony of ex-gang members or ex-Mafia members then.
In fact, the entire legal system should throw out any testimony from
battered spouses because they may be skewing their past.
   There are very few ex-cult members in the academic world,
unfortunately.  I think academicians have a tendency to simply accept
what a religious group says about itself.  I recommend "The Devil and
Mr. Jones" by J Z Smith for an academician's look at how religious
studies professors ignore cults.

>. .Mr. Rick Ross, who often works in conjunction with the Cult Awareness
>Network (CAN), has been quoted as saying he was `consulted' by the BATF. .
>.The Network and Mr. Ross have a direct ideological (and financial)
>interest in arousing suspicion and antagonism against what they call
>`cults'. . .It seem clear that people within the `anti-cult' community had
>targeted the Branch Davidians for attention." (JDR:Ammerman:1)

   And I'm glad they did!  They had illegal weapons! They practiced
blowing things up on their ranch!  They owned a .50 caliber sniper
rifle capable of piercing armor!  Koresh had previously tried to kill
his rival in a shootout!  Ex-members were coming out with horror
stories about living conditions.  And you think they should have been
ignored?  Would you like an apocalyptic group with automatic weapons
and bombs living next to you?

[snip]
>Nancy Ammerman compared Waco and Jonestown: "There, too, an exceptionally
>volatile religious group was pushed over the edge, inadvertently, by the
>actions of government agencies pushed forward by `concerned families.'"
>(JDR:Ammerman:8) What she may not have realized is that CAN's President is
>Patricia Ryan, daughter of Congressman Leo J.  Ryan.  It was he who
>threatened and hounded Jim Jones and his Peoples' Temple members until
>they murdered him and committed mass suicide in Guyana in 1978.  Carrying
>on what seems to have become a family tradition, on April 8, 1993,
   All Ryan did was go visit Jonestown.  You think that deserved his
being murdered, eh?  And they practiced the White Nights several times
before they actually drank real poison.  Jones had that night plannned
long before it happened.

>Patricia Ryan told the Houston Chronicle, "Officials should use whatever
>means necessary to arrest Koresh, including lethal force."
   This is a misquote, and I challenge you to call the reporter and
get his stand on this quote now.  Let us know what he says, ok?
>[30]

[snip]

>After the fire, CAN "counselor" Brett Bates tried to arrange contacts with
>survivors by meeting with their families.  He told the N.Y. Daily News,
>"Before they can become productive witnesses in the prosecution, they have
>to realize they were victims of mind control."  Columnist Alexander
>Cockburn wrote, "the deprogrammers are demanding that they be allowed to
>exercise their dark arts on the burned Davidian survivors so that they
>testify correctly and desist from maintaining--as they have--that no mass
>suicide was under way.  The FBI says `this is worth considering,' but the
>decision is up to the U.S. attorney."
   Here it sounds like you think CAN might practice mind control on
the survivors.  But, I thought you didn't believe in mind control?
How could they do this?
>[32]

>The only Branch Davidian to turn state's evidence is Katherine Schroeder
>who was confined in a mental institution after leaving Mount Carmel in
>March, 1993 (private communication.)  It is unknown if she was
>"deprogrammed."

>After the April 19th fire Methodist Minister Joseph Bettis wrote Attorney
>General Reno, "from the beginning, members of the Cult Awareness Network
>have been involved in this tragedy.  This organization is widely known for
>its use of fear to foster religious bigotry.  

   I challenge you to back up this notion of religious bigotry.  I've
been to the last 6 CAN conferences and every time I have met ministers
from several religions.  On the board of CAN have been Catholic
priests, rabbis, and ministers from Protestant denominations.
   While I have seen Christian anti-cult groups use a religious
definition of "cult", CAN always used a secular definition dependent
on a groups' actions.

>The reliance of federal
>agents on information supplied by these people, as well as the whole
>record of federal activity deserves your careful investigation and public
>disclosure. . .Cult bashing must end, and you must take the lead."  Larry
>Shinn, a vice president of Bucknell University wrote to the chair of the
>House Subcommittee on Civil and Constitutional Rights, "media, legal
>institutions, and law-makers too often rely on the word of self-styled
>cult experts like C.A.N. whose overly negative agenda often slides into
>purely anti- religious attack."  And in early May, a coalition of 16
>religious and civil liberties organizations, including the American Civil
>Liberties Union, the American Conference on Religious Movements, Americans
>United for Separation of Church and State, the Episcopal Church, the
>General Conference of Seventh-Day Adventists, the National Association of
>Evangelicals, the National Council of Churches of Christ and the Union of
>American Hebrew Congregations issued a statement which read in part, "We
>are shocked and saddened by the recent events in Waco. . .Under the
>religious liberty provision of the First Amendment, the government has no
>business declaring what is orthodox or heretical, or what is a true or
>false religion.  It should steer clear of inflammatory and misleading
>labels.  

   Weren't they going after a group that had illegal weapons?  What
are you doing steering this to a religious persecution?

[snip]

>BATF is still investigating so-called cults.  In November, 1993, acting
>director John W. Magaw stated that he was determined that other religious
>"cults" not develop into "armed compounds."  He said, "They're out there.
>They don't yet have the kind of weaponry that we saw in Waco.  . .but they
>will develop if society allows them to."  Magaw said BATF is keeping tabs
>on "cult-like organizations" in "three or four places around the country.
>. .We're trying to monitor way early in the game."

The Church Universal and Triumphant was also found purchasing illegal
weapons, and in fact they were in the process of buying a tank!  But I
suppose it was a religious tank, so we shouldn't worry about it,
right?  And what would you say if your city was gassed by some wacko
religious group? I'll bet you'd be the first to complain "why wasn't
anybody keeping an eye on these guys?"
>[33]

>In his November 22, 1993, American Academy of Religion presentation, Dr.
>Melton condemned the government's calling on groups like the Cult
>Awareness Network for information on "cults."  He compared it to the
>government calling on Nazis for information on Jews or Ku Klux Klan
>members for information on African-Americans.

Oh right, and Aum Shin Rikyo is a wonderful nice religion, right
Melton?  That's what you said isn't it?  It was holy gas in the subway
there, huh?  And holy gas is ok?
[snip]

CAN Mirror Page Index





Re: Moxon not dumped quite yet [Bev, 11 Dec 1996]

From: Bev <dbj1120@iag.net>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Moxon not dumped quite yet
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:22:36 -0500
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Rod Keller wrote:
> 
> It is true that Moxon is Scott's attorney still-partially. Thanks to Moxon
> keeping Jason in the dark, he was not aware of CANS pending appeal in the
> ninth circuit court of appeals. 

Doesn't this constitute legal malpractice.  If a lawyer is hired to
represent a person, are they supposed to keep that person in the
dark?

> Jasons brief is due on 12/26/96. Since
> Moxon got a good trial court result, knows the applicable facts, law and
> arguments - and has the greatest motive to see the judgment stand. I
> decided to leave him in place for the very limited purpose of briefing and
> arguing the appeal. Any communication with Jason must be through me. I am
> monitoring his work - so he is being supervised by an SP! All other
> matters are being handled by me.

Didn't Jason Scott realize that he was just being used as a pawn?
That Moxon and the Co$ weren't interested in him individually, but
in bankrupting CAN out of existance, and so to be able to buy
out their holdings and get their hands on the CAN files?

> I believe that after Moxon won the judgment at the trial court level he
> developed the most outrageous coflicts of interest resulting in a huge
> potential legal malpractice law suit by Jason against Moxon, and maybe the
> trustee too.

Okay, my fist question answered.  Now, aren't there some kind of laws
to protect individuals seeking help from being used by lawyers to
meet the lawyers desires and simply using the individual as a means
to an end?  This is scary.

Beverly

CAN Mirror Page Index





OpEd to Washington Post about CAN [Carol2180, 13 Dec 1996]

From: carol2180@aol.com (Carol2180)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: OpEd to Washington Post about CAN
Date: 13 Dec 1996 19:25:57 GMT
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OpEd

Regarding the front page story "Anti-cult Group Dismembered as Former Foes
Buy its Assets", which was about Scientology purchasing the name, phone
number, logo and PO Box of an organization offering an opposing point of
view to theirs, i.e. The Cult Awareness Network.  The following offers a
few corrections and some additional thoughts.

The writer made the statement that "with each passing decade, these
religious groups [cults] have become increasingly mainstream".  I would
argue that any group that relies on deception to recruit new members is
not mainstream and it is this tactic and their legal tactics of suing opposing
points of view out of existence, that should keep the press and public
from considering them mainstream, or allowing them to hold themselves out in
any way as "mainstream".

Public discourse between opposing points of view is guaranteed by the
constitution, but when our legal system allows one group to do a hostile
take-over of another group, something is wrong.  What is next? Will we
allow the National Rifle Association be able to take over Handgun Control?
Will we allow a pro-choice group to be similarly sued into bankruptcy and
taken over by a pro-life group?  Will we allow Children of the Night (a
group that helps get teenage prostitutes off the streets) to be taken over
by pornography interests or pimps?  

The Cult Awareness Network had gone on record numerous times as opposing
involuntary deprogramming because kidnapping someone, even a parent who
has lost a child to a cult, is against the law.  Although parents around the
globe can empathize with the desperate parents who see the dangers and
personality changes occurring, the law does not give them the right to
perform kidnappings or acts of civil disobedience.  So for The Cult
Awareness Network to be held liable for the opinion expressed by a
volunteer in a state far away, is wrong.  For their assets to be sold
while the case is under appeal is wrong.  This horrendous occurrence has
chilling ramifications for all volunteer organizations, including the Salvation
Army with its many bell ringers, the Boyscouts, Planned Parenthood, The Red
Cross, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, and many more.

The news article refers to the bankruptcy trustee Philip Martino as being
a "plain-speaking Chicago attorney" who made the statement "[The Cult
Awareness Network] doesn't exist.  Whatever power [The Cult Awareness
Network] had is now mine."  Well, with power comes responsibility.  His
allowing the name, logo, telephone number, and Post Office Box to be sold
to Scientology while appeals were still pending, was a total misapplication
of power.  In becoming the bankruptcy trustee, he became the representative
of thousands of people who had given dedication, money and their time to
the cult awareness movement for the betterment of society.  I understand
he was not willing to make new law or litigate against Scientology.  After
all the law suits that The Cult Awareness Network had been plagued with, I can
understand his reluctance.  However, attorneys sometimes have to be
advocates of positions, and if he were going to accept the position of
being a bankruptcy trustee in this case he should not have caved into the
opposition, but rather he has a responsibility to society and the members
of The Cult Awareness Network to consider their position and the results
of his action.

In libraries and bookstores across the country, there are books that will
help parents who have lost a kid to a cult.  In those books are references
to resources and support networks, The Cult Awareness Network being one of
the best.  Now that members of Scientology have bought the name, phone
number and address, you can guess what parents will hear when they call
this number.  Parents lose enough sleep in dealing with this problem. 
Many callers ask for anonymity when calling the hot line.  Will these members
of Scientology honor that request or rather inform the child of their parents
phone call?  Will they pretend they are providing cult awareness or will
they send out a packet of disinformation to the parents? 

Mr. Martino has not yet sold the records of The Cult Awareness Network,
but we can guess who the likely bidder will be.  Will they destroy decades of
research and records?  Will they harass contributors and supporters of the
Cult Awareness Network?  

Now that the person who started all this, Jason Scott, has fired the
attorney who also represents Scientologists, and instead hired an
anti-cult attorney, will Martino negotiate and allow The Cult Awareness Network to
come out of bankruptcy?  Even though they no longer own the name, logo and
phone number, the true Cult Awareness Network organization still owns the
records that in the past has proven so valuable to law enforcement, the
news media, schools, educators, and family members.  Perhaps if Mr.
Martino does not have the fortitude to stand up to Scientology, he should withdraw
himself and let the court appoint someone who at least recognizes the
importance that this case has to society at large.

Where can parents and loved ones turn for help now, today?  There are
still local affiliates of The Cult Awareness Network (who now are changing their
names because Scientologists own the name) in Baltimore, San Francisco,
Dallas, Oklahoma City, Pittsburgh, Rochester, and Denver.  Law
enforcement, mental health professionals and people who need help can check the phone
book, or another similar minded organization is The American Family
Foundation in NY city (212-533-5420).

CAN Mirror Page Index





Re: CAN vs. Co$ appeal brief: "Conspiracy to engage in malicious prosecution" [Ex Mudder, 24 Dec 1996]

From: dkeith@xenu.best.com (Ex Mudder)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.scientology.xenu
Subject: Re: CAN vs. Co$ appeal brief: "Conspiracy to engage in malicious prosecution"
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 14:37:07 GMT
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   Some cute pieces...

>The Nordquist suit claimed that CAN fraudulently induced a 
>Scientologist into performing volunteer activities.  C 213-214; App. 
>A42-43.

  I havn't giggled at the basis of a lawsuit for a while...

> Moreover, in securing a voluntary dismissal, the nominal plaintiff 
>in one suit (Nordquist) even admitted that "the lawsuit is without 
>foundation in fact and was instigated by the Church of Scientology."  

   And he turned round...

> the Court adopted the majority (and Restatement) view that a 
>prosecution abandoned through nolle prosequi can constitute a favorable 
>termination upon a showing at trial that the abandonment was consistent with 
>the malicious prosecution plaintiff's innocence.

  Interesting...

>Indeed, we know of no jurisdiction, other than Illinois, that has adopted a 
>requirement that "factual" (as opposed to legal) issues be resolved in favor 
>of the malicious prosecution plaintiff to sustain a cause of action.

   The more I read, the more convinced I am that Illinois is wrong in
the head.
   According to the decisions of the lower courts, you can be only be
sued for being a vexatious litigant if the suits were found to be
factually in error.
   In Illinois, the fact that the suits were found to have no legal
basis is not actionable.

  In other words, if Grady et al win their suits for whatever reason,
they could only countersue claiming Scientology to be a vexatious
litigant who uses the legal system to harass, and if possible, destroy
their enemies, if the courts found that Grady was not, in fact,
Scamizdat.
  If it was dismissed because there was no proof Grady was Scamizdat,
tough shit.

  Or, in other words, you can only countersue if you go through the
whole trial and win.  Getting the trial terminated quickly as baseless
wouldn't count.


Ex Mudder / http://www.best.com/~dkeith
If email to me bounces, its probably because Xenu was in it.
"If two people have all the same opinions, 
only one of them is doing the thinking"

CAN Mirror Page Index






Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling Conclusion! [Ceon Ramon, 24 Dec 1996]

From: ceon@u.washington.edu (Ceon Ramon)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.support.ex-cult
Subject: Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling Conclusion!
Date: 24 Dec 1996 19:03:22 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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NNTP-Posting-User: ceon

In article <32bf7429.55639@news.ping.be>, Bernie <bern@arcadis.be> wrote:
>noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) wrote:
>
>>Bernie, you're getting irrational again.  None of what you said can be
>>rationally supported.  It is full of suppositions, fuzzy word-speak, and wild
>>extrapolations.  Your hatred for CAN is getting the better of your clear
>>thinking.
>
>Which part is not plausible? Why doesn't Scott show up? He can't
>be traced and only speaks to the outside world by telephone.
>Surely he is being deprogrammed and they don't want to let him
>out until he is out of the "floating state". The floating state
>is dangerous for them because the person can still think for
>himself, so they may change their mind.

Oh, come on _Bernie_!  You're being unnecessarily conspiratorial.  It
makes perfect sense to me that the man, who I believe I remember saying
he's tired of "being a poster boy for Scientology," is fed up with
publicity and being hounded by questions.  He wants a reasonable
settlement from CAN, he wants to resume a normal life with his family. 
Why on earth should he make public appearances?  He doesn't owe that to
anyone.  The man was betrayed by Moxon, who exploited him for purposes
that didn't serve Scott's interests.  Scott was unaware of Moxon's
associations and agenda, and he had probably never even heard of
Scientology.  A lot of people haven't.  Now that he is aware of these
things he wants an attorney who will represent _him_ and _his_ interests,
and he has found one in Berry.  The fact that Berry too has another agenda
doesn't mean he won't do a good job of representing Scott simply because
his priorities and Scott's priorities coincide, which was not the case
with Moxon. 

Don't make things so complicated. 

--Barbara


CAN Mirror Page Index






Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C [JimDBB, 24 Dec 1996]

From: jimdbb@aol.com (JimDBB)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C
Date: 24 Dec 1996 22:19:21 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <19961224221800.RAA17835@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

there is an awful lot of bullshit going around about CAN.  Why not ask
someone who actually worked at the CAN Nat. office. I worked there for the
last 2 years until CAN was closed in June.

I am a former rondroid ( scientologist) and I became one who took phone
calls from around the world. Calls from very distressed people...parents
of, husbands or wives of, siblings or friends of someone who had been
lured into a destructive cult.. Many of the most disturbing calls involved
scientology. We helped these callers as best we could. Sometimes we shared
information from CAN files...mostly public domain info such as magazine
articles, newspaper articles etc. Sometimes we referred callers to former
members who had volunteered to be contacted. Or sometimes we referred them
to other informational or help organizations.

And this is basically all that CAN staff did. All of these wild
allegations of deprogramming etc. are lies generated by the Church of
Scientology( my old cult).

Within a week or two that I started work in the CAN office, Kendrick Moxon
sent a threatening letter to CAN.  It drove them nuts that a former member
was working in the office. I started receiving threat ening calls at the
office and at home. Shortly after CAN was ordered closed by the bankrupt
US Bankrupcty Court, I started receiving calls from people saying that
they had received in the mail 8 pages of material attacking me personally.
 These were people who had called CAN for info on scientology and that I
had talked with. How did scientology agents get these names and addresses?
 I have reason to believe that the scientology agent or agents who are
attacking me, are acting under Moxon's orders.  and we of the CAN staff, 
have good reason to believe that scientology agents had, somehow, bugged
the CAN office in Barrington, IL
 Nobody, from Judge Barliants' Court, down to appointed US Trustee, Philip
Martino, has given CAN staff the most ordinary consideration. And
curiously enough, the have catered to Kendrick Moxon's every demand.

The CAN staff were put out of work with an hours notice. Trustee, Philip
Martino, has been totally unresponsive, secretive and untruthful. He tried
to slip through the sale of the CAN files and only withdrew from this when
people heard of this and began an outcry. He denied CAN staff access to
their own mail. He arrogantly told me that he was throwing CAN mail in the
garbage.  He quickly realized that he had blundered with this disclosure
and tried  to backtrack having his secretary claim that she would send on
mail that was addressed to CAN staff or pertained to them. This was a
total lie as no CAN staff ever received anything. You saw Martino's
arrogant remarks in the Washington Post article. I have informed the US
Trustee over him, that I wanted to file charges.

Jason Scott now wants "pocket money" from CAN.  I sincerely hope that no
one associated with CAN gives this guy one dime. CAN should now sue Scott
and Moxon. Moxon is a criminal who should be disbarred and indicted  These
two destroyed CAN.

The CAN staff are totally dedicated and would do this work without pay if
they could. Cynthia Kisser has stood firm amidst everything. She has
undergone the most vicious attacks from scientology. She deserves some
sort of Nobel for her dedication and fortitude.  

Many some day the CAN staff story will come out. There is a great deal
more to this.  I know , from personal experience,  that countless numbers
of people around this country and beyond have been considerably helped by
CAN.  Maybe, some of them will come forward.

                                                                          
    Jim Beebe 

CAN Mirror Page Index






Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C [P. FITZPATRICK, 24 Dec 1996]

From: "P. FITZPATRICK" <p.fitz@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:50:57 -0800
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <32C06C61.49F6@worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.128.38
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win16; I)
To: JimDBB <jimdbb@aol.com>

I am keeping this entire posting intact because I do not want Jim's message to 
get shortened by me - what he has to say is important. I added one notation in 
the body of the text and the rest is at the end.


JimDBB wrote:
> 
> there is an awful lot of bullshit going around about CAN.  Why not ask
> someone who actually worked at the CAN Nat. office. I worked there for the
> last 2 years until CAN was closed in June.
> 
> I am a former rondroid ( scientologist) and I became one who took phone
> calls from around the world. Calls from very distressed people...parents
> of, husbands or wives of, siblings or friends of someone who had been
> lured into a destructive cult.. Many of the most disturbing calls involved
> scientology. We helped these callers as best we could. Sometimes we shared
> information from CAN files...mostly public domain info such as magazine
> articles, newspaper articles etc. Sometimes we referred callers to former
> members who had volunteered to be contacted. Or sometimes we referred them
> to other informational or help organizations.

-And folks, this _is_ exactly what CAN did for me. No secret stuff. No hidden 
agenda. No, that _is_ a cult. Just provided me with the information so that I 
could make my own decision about what I went through. I was provided a couple of 
contact names and referred to some organizations. Because of the lawsuit (thank 
you very much Scott and Moxon <dripping sarcasm>) most of the _volunteer_ 
organinzations had closed shop. Especially those that were created for people 
like me, a place to go to talk about what happened to me and to create a plan on 
getting my life back.


> 
> And this is basically all that CAN staff did. All of these wild
> allegations of deprogramming etc. are lies generated by the Church of
> Scientology( my old cult).
> 
> Within a week or two that I started work in the CAN office, Kendrick Moxon
> sent a threatening letter to CAN.  It drove them nuts that a former member
> was working in the office. I started receiving threat ening calls at the
> office and at home. Shortly after CAN was ordered closed by the bankrupt
> US Bankrupcty Court, I started receiving calls from people saying that
> they had received in the mail 8 pages of material attacking me personally.
>  These were people who had called CAN for info on scientology and that I
> had talked with. How did scientology agents get these names and addresses?
>  I have reason to believe that the scientology agent or agents who are
> attacking me, are acting under Moxon's orders.  and we of the CAN staff,
> have good reason to believe that scientology agents had, somehow, bugged
> the CAN office in Barrington, IL
>  Nobody, from Judge Barliants' Court, down to appointed US Trustee, Philip
> Martino, has given CAN staff the most ordinary consideration. And
> curiously enough, the have catered to Kendrick Moxon's every demand.
> 
> The CAN staff were put out of work with an hours notice. Trustee, Philip
> Martino, has been totally unresponsive, secretive and untruthful. He tried
> to slip through the sale of the CAN files and only withdrew from this when
> people heard of this and began an outcry. He denied CAN staff access to
> their own mail. He arrogantly told me that he was throwing CAN mail in the
> garbage.  He quickly realized that he had blundered with this disclosure
> and tried  to backtrack having his secretary claim that she would send on
> mail that was addressed to CAN staff or pertained to them. This was a
> total lie as no CAN staff ever received anything. You saw Martino's
> arrogant remarks in the Washington Post article. I have informed the US
> Trustee over him, that I wanted to file charges.
> 
> Jason Scott now wants "pocket money" from CAN.  I sincerely hope that no
> one associated with CAN gives this guy one dime. CAN should now sue Scott
> and Moxon. Moxon is a criminal who should be disbarred and indicted  These
> two destroyed CAN.
> 
> The CAN staff are totally dedicated and would do this work without pay if
> they could. Cynthia Kisser has stood firm amidst everything. She has
> undergone the most vicious attacks from scientology. She deserves some
> sort of Nobel for her dedication and fortitude.
> 
> Many some day the CAN staff story will come out. There is a great deal
> more to this.  I know , from personal experience,  that countless numbers
> of people around this country and beyond have been considerably helped by
> CAN.  Maybe, some of them will come forward.
> 
> 
>     Jim Beebe

Jim,

Count me in as one of the people that CAN assisted. And count me in as one of the 
people that was not pleased about the complete lack of disclosure on the part of 
the courts that my phone call and the information that I voluntarily gave to CAN 
was up for sale. Instead of all the files being lumped together I think that I 
should have the opportunity to purchase my own information first and what could 
be deemed a fair price, say a penny - without CO$ or Landmark Education 
Corporation getting their greedy dirty fingers on my information <ranting 
finished>

One can only hope that Jason has learned his lesson, at a lot of other people's 
expense and heartache.

CAN Mirror Page Index






Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C [Bev, 24 Dec 1996]

From: Bev <dbj1120@iag.net>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 20:39:21 -0500
Organization: Internet Access Group, Orlando, Florida
Lines: 104
Message-ID: <32C085C9.33E1@iag.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U)

JimDBB wrote:
> 
> there is an awful lot of bullshit going around about CAN.  Why not ask
> someone who actually worked at the CAN Nat. office. I worked there for the
> last 2 years until CAN was closed in June.

Jim, your work and heart was appreciated.  You never failed to be
of assistance or help for me or anyone else I knew of that called
and or wrote to you.  As a matter of fact, you went out of your way
to be helpful and understanding.

> 
> I am a former rondroid ( scientologist) and I became one who took phone
> calls from around the world. Calls from very distressed people...parents
> of, husbands or wives of, siblings or friends of someone who had been
> lured into a destructive cult.. Many of the most disturbing calls involved
> scientology. We helped these callers as best we could. Sometimes we shared
> information from CAN files...mostly public domain info such as magazine
> articles, newspaper articles etc. Sometimes we referred callers to former
> members who had volunteered to be contacted. Or sometimes we referred them
> to other informational or help organizations.
> 
> And this is basically all that CAN staff did. All of these wild
> allegations of deprogramming etc. are lies generated by the Church of
> Scientology( my old cult).

When I called in for help, and same with every other person I know of
who called for assistance, all that was offered was information, and most
of all an understanding ear.  Not once was even a ~remote~ suggestion
made to me or any of the other people I know about deprogramming or
deprogrammers.

> Within a week or two that I started work in the CAN office, Kendrick Moxon
> sent a threatening letter to CAN.  It drove them nuts that a former member
> was working in the office. I started receiving threat ening calls at the
> office and at home. Shortly after CAN was ordered closed by the bankrupt
> US Bankrupcty Court, I started receiving calls from people saying that
> they had received in the mail 8 pages of material attacking me personally.
>  These were people who had called CAN for info on scientology and that I
> had talked with. How did scientology agents get these names and addresses?

How did they get information from all the various government agencies
and offices (that they have infiltrated)?

>  I have reason to believe that the scientology agent or agents who are
> attacking me, are acting under Moxon's orders.  and we of the CAN staff,
> have good reason to believe that scientology agents had, somehow, bugged
> the CAN office in Barrington, IL
>  Nobody, from Judge Barliants' Court, down to appointed US Trustee, Philip
> Martino, has given CAN staff the most ordinary consideration. And
> curiously enough, thye have catered to Kendrick Moxon's every demand.

You've got a point there.
 
> The CAN staff were put out of work with an hours notice. Trustee, Philip
> Martino, has been totally unresponsive, secretive and untruthful. He tried
> to slip through the sale of the CAN files and only withdrew from this when
> people heard of this and began an outcry. 

Thank goodness word of this got out at least a little.  It would be
interesting to know what would have happened if there had not been an
outcry.

> He denied CAN staff access to
> their own mail. He arrogantly told me that he was throwing CAN mail in the
> garbage.  He quickly realized that he had blundered with this disclosure
> and tried  to backtrack having his secretary claim that she would send on
> mail that was addressed to CAN staff or pertained to them. This was a
> total lie as no CAN staff ever received anything. You saw Martino's
> arrogant remarks in the Washington Post article. I have informed the US
> Trustee over him, that I wanted to file charges.

Isn't withholding mail and mail interference a Federal Crime?  I know 
that I am not the ~only~ person who addressed mail there to the person
that they had talked to.

> 
> Jason Scott now wants "pocket money" from CAN.  I sincerely hope that no
> one associated with CAN gives this guy one dime. CAN should now sue Scott
> and Moxon. Moxon is a criminal who should be disbarred and indicted  These
> two destroyed CAN.

I have to disagree on this one point in that I know from many peoples
experriences as well as my own that Co$ is a victimizer, and Jason 
Scott was nothing more than a pawn and a victim in the game for Co$
to win and control CAN.  The poor guy didn't even realize what he was
truly involved in.  He found out too late . . . well, hopefully not TOO
late.  I think that forgiveness is the key.  Co$ and their lackey Moxon
are the ones who orchestrated the trap.

> 
> The CAN staff are totally dedicated and would do this work without pay if
> they could. Cynthia Kisser has stood firm amidst everything. She has
> undergone the most vicious attacks from scientology. She deserves some
> sort of Nobel for her dedication and fortitude.
> 
> Many some day the CAN staff story will come out. There is a great deal
> more to this.  I know , from personal experience,  that countless numbers
> of people around this country and beyond have been considerably helped by
> CAN.  Maybe, some of them will come forward.

We look forward to seeing those and other stories come out.

Beverly

CAN Mirror Page Index






Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C [P. FITZPATRICK, 24 Dec 1996]

From: "P. FITZPATRICK" <p.fitz@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: The Scott VS Ross/CAN Case: a troubling C
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 21:49:01 -0800
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <32C0C04D.799A@worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.128.116
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win16; I)
To: Bev <dbj1120@iag.net>

Bev wrote:
> 
> JimDBB wrote:<snipped to where I want to comment, publically>
> > The CAN staff were put out of work with an hours notice. Trustee, Philip
> > Martino, has been totally unresponsive, secretive and untruthful. He tried
> > to slip through the sale of the CAN files and only withdrew from this when
> > people heard of this and began an outcry.
> 
> Thank goodness word of this got out at least a little.  It would be
> interesting to know what would have happened if there had not been an
> outcry.

-No, it would not be interesting for me at all to find out what would have happened. 
Right now, as I simmer just thinking of what these people tryed to do, well how about 
the ACLU defending ME?!? Sure, Jason's civil liberties were compromised (in his 
opinion) but what about _my_  constitutional right to privacy? I did not "spill my 
guts" to CAN only to have Landmark or CO$ get ahold of those documents!!!! Who in the 
blazes do I speak to about _my_ rights?

> 
> > He denied CAN staff access to
> > their own mail. He arrogantly told me that he was throwing CAN mail in the
> > garbage.  He quickly realized that he had blundered with this disclosure
> > and tried  to backtrack having his secretary claim that she would send on
> > mail that was addressed to CAN staff or pertained to them. This was a
> > total lie as no CAN staff ever received anything. You saw Martino's
> > arrogant remarks in the Washington Post article. I have informed the US
> > Trustee over him, that I wanted to file charges.
> 
> Isn't withholding mail and mail interference a Federal Crime?  I know
> that I am not the ~only~ person who addressed mail there to the person
> that they had talked to.

Tampering with mail _is_ a Federal offense. Only problem, there may not be very many 
people willing to step forward to admit that they sent mail in the first place. I 
know that I'm not at all comfortable even discussing this issue online. And I don't 
believe that what I went through in my "cult" involvement compares to what others 
have had to endure. I still feel that I have a lot to lose with giving up my right to 
privacy in this matter but at the same time, to stay silent only lets the evil walk 
on this earth and get away with these "crimes".

<snip>

> We look forward to seeing those and other stories come out.
> 
> Beverly


My opinion too - anyone else out there? -pam

CAN Mirror Page Index






I've been served [Rod Keller, 25 Dec 1996]

From: rkeller@netaxs.com (Rod Keller)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: I've been served
Date: 25 Dec 1996 23:39:35 GMT
Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <59sdvn$9l5@netaxs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: unix1.netaxs.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]

On the evening of December 23rd, I was served a subpeona from Kendrick
Moxon. He is attempting to depose me in the case of Scott v. Rick Ross &
CAN. I am commanded to produce:

"All communications to or with Graham Berry, Steven Fishman, any officer
or director of the Cult Awareness Network, and/or Rick Ross; any
communications to or with any person concerning or relating to Jason Scott
and the case of _Scott v. Ross & CAN_; any communications relating to the
Cult Awareness Network. This demand includes all electronic and hard copy
media of any type in your possession, custody or control." 

It's supposed to take place on January 2nd, 1996 at HQ Business Center,
1500 Market Square, 12th Floor, East Tower Center, Philadelphia, PA 19102.
I live in Philadelphia.

Kendrick is apparently the attorney of record in Rick Ross'
bankruptcy case. I don't know why that is.

From the grapevine, I understand that nearly identical documents were
served on Jason Scott, Kathy Tobin (Jason's mom), Cynthia Kisser, Rick
Ross, David Bardin (CAN lobbyist and Cynthia's lawyer), and Graham Berry.
Perhaps Steve Fishman also received one, since he is mentioned. I can't
imagine what Steve has to do with CAN. I can't imagine what _I_ have to do
with CAN. I've never attended a CAN meeting or been a member, although I
once ordered a video of Stacey Young from them. I'm sure this is a result
of my posting two emails from Graham clarifying the Scott developments.
I've received only one other email from Graham, ever. I don't think
they'll find it very interesting.

This appears to be a pure fishing trip. I can't imagine I'll actually get
into a room with Mor^Hxon. Particularly since he forgot to attach the
court order, which he's supposed to do.

-- 
Rod Keller / rkeller@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / Golden Gate Bridge Club
The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Kha Khan countdown: 9 to go
Killer Rod / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully

CAN Mirror Page Index







Re: CAN vs. Co$ appeal brief: "Conspiracy to engage in malicious prosecution" [Tilman Hausherr, 26 Dec 1996]

From: tilman@xenu.com (Tilman Hausherr)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.scientology.xenu
Subject: Re: CAN vs. Co$ appeal brief: "Conspiracy to engage in malicious prosecution"
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 01:03:33 GMT
Organization: Xenu's Ranch
Lines: 115
Approved: xenu@galactic.org
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In <59rip2$a3p@krypto.zippo.com>, seaorg@super.zippo.com (seaorg) wrote:

>Tilman, you remember "Rev." Andrew Bagley, perhaps sometime you could
>repost his letter to a parent?

Sure... Reverend Bagley is such a caring guy...

From: tilman@berlin.snafu.de (Tilman Hausherr)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Reverend Bagley speaks
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 16:29:41 GMT

A father got this letter from Reverend Bagley:

[schnip]

<Church of Scientology letterhead>

Rather than let my lawyers have all the fun, I will write to you this
once and straighten you out. I have a great urge to beggar you to your
last pair of socks, but I will curb the desire a little longer. If you
had the gut of a demented swineherd you would have read those pieces of
literature I so graciously had sent to you... do not judge people by
yourself. Not everyone is a mass murderer like yourself. Yes, I know
quite a bit about you and your various projects during the war. And how
do you sleep at night? I hope tis ill... I am expert at harassment, try
me and find out. You are not strong enough. You are not smart enough.
You haven't the funds to go through long lengthy court battles. We have.
Bigger men than you have done their best to stop us. They failed. So
will you because you are a blatant moron in comparison. We joust only
with our peers, others like you we will simply gobble up... one more
word out of you and I'll have you investigated. I might anyway. I have
never seen one person yet that resisted Scientology who didn't have a
great deal to hide. And you evidently won't look at free books sent to
you, so you must, perforce have a great deal to conceal.

[The letter continued with more accusations of guilt on the part of the
father, along with praise of Scientology and concluded on this ominous
note.]

If you want to start a Donnybrook, Buddy, wail away; to use the argot of
the streets I'll just start my people to work on you and then before
long you will be broke, and out of a job and broken in health. Then I
can have my nasty little chuckle about you and get back to work. . .
You won't take long to finish off. I would estimate three weeks.
Remember: I am not a mealy mouthed psalm [sic] canting preacher. I am a
minister of the Church of Scientology I am able to heal the sick and I
do. But I have other abilities which include a knowledge of men's minds
that I will use to crush you to your knees. You or any other wretch that
stands in our way. Cause the list is long, but their careers are very
short of those that have jousted with us.

With the utmost sincerity possible



Reverend Andrew Bagley
Organisational Secretary

P.S.: Don't reply to this letter. If I want to get in touch with you,
I'll be able to find you. Anywhere.

[schnip]

Reverend Andrew Bagley wrote this letter to a father who didn't want to
pay the courses of his son, and reported the scienos.

Later, the father paid the bill, and his son took approximately $4,500
worth more courses in Scientology paying for them himself the next time
from a $5,000 inheritance.

From: Paulette Cooper, "The scandal of Scientology" (re-formatted, sorry
for the typos)

--- Tilman Hausherr  [Awards: KoX, DB, Koos "seal of approval"] 
biz:  tilman@sietec.de                 http://www.sietec.de/ (company page)
home: tilman@berlin.snafu.de           http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/

  Praise Xenu, Mozilla and "Bob"!  (and say "Hi" to Warren McShane !)



Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: More on Bagley
From: cultxpt@primenet.com (Jeff Jacobsen)
Date: 8 Jul 1995 17:13:43 GMT

   Tilman's post of a letter from andrew Bagley sounded familiar, so I 
found this quote from Saturday Evening Post, March 21, 1964 titled "Have 
You Ever Been a Boo-hoo?" by James Phelan;

   Hostility toward Scientology can even be defined as refusing to pay a 
Scientologist's bill.  A middlewesterner, whose son owed a New York 
Scientologist $350 for "processing," at $22 an hour, complained that the 
treatment was worthless and declined to pay.  He received a two-page 
letter on the letterhead of the Founding Church of Scientology bearing 
the hand-written signature of a Rev. Andrew Bagley, Organization 
Secretary.  "If you want to start a donnybrook, buddy, wail away," the 
letter said.  "To use the argot of the streets, I'll just start my people 
to work on you, and then before long you will be broke and out of a job, 
and broken in health.  Then I can have my nasty little chuckle over 
you... You won't take long to finish off.  I would estimate three weeks.  
Remember: I am not a mealy-mouthed, psalm-chanting preacher.  I am a 
minister of the Church of Scientology!  I am able to heal the sick and I 
do.  But I have other abilities, which include a knowledge of men's minds 
that I will use to crush you to your knees."  The recipient quickly 
ponied up the money. [end quote] 

--
//////
"It's like, a.r.s. is a GREAT BIG SUPER-SMART BRAIN, and Co$ 
confusion and disinformation tech is a leettle-bitty 
theety-wheety brain." (Daniel Davidson)
ftp.primenet.com /users/c/cultxpt


CAN Mirror Page Index





Article about CAN on CNN (Dec. 19, 1996) [Andreas Heldal-Lund, 30 Dec 1997]

From: Andreas Heldal-Lund <heldal@online.no>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Article about CAN on CNN (Dec. 19, 1996)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:01:29 +0100
Organization: Telenor Online Public Access
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------------5A10C682FDF0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Found the following article at CNN:

----ARTICLE START----

_Group that once criticized Scientologists now owned by one_

December 19, 1996 Web posted at: 8:00 a.m. EST
From Correspondent Dan Knapp

SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- At one time, the Cult Awareness Network took as
many as 16,000 telephone calls a year in an effort to help anxious
families worried about sons or daughters involved with unconventional
religions.

But last month, after 20 years of operation, the Cult Awareness Network
closed its doors, forced into bankruptcy after losing a costly lawsuit
to the church of Scientology.

Now the phones are ringing again -- but this time there's a good chance
they'll be answered by a Scientologist.
In a bizarre twist of fortune, the organization that was once the most
vocal critic of Scientology is now owned by a member of the
controversial church.

"I think this is going to be devastating," said Cynthia Kisser, former
director of the Cult Awareness Network. "People are going to believe
they're going to talk o an organization that's going to help and
understand them in their time of crisis, and in fact, it could be a
pipeline of information directly to the group they're most afraid of."

Since 1991, 50 lawsuits were filed against the Cult Awareness Network by
people who were somehow connected with the Church of Scientology, said
Kisser. Most were dismissed -- but one produced a judgment of nearly $2
million against the network.

The attorney who won the suit is a Scientologist who often represented
the church. Another attorney, also a Scientologist, bought the name and
telephone numbers of the Cult Awareness Network.

_Watchdog or hate group?_

Scientologist Bob Lippman, calling the old network a hate group, said
the new Cult Awareness Network will stand for religious freedom.

"That's what the new CAN will stand for," Lippman said. "For promoting
religious freedom, understanding, peace on Earth, good will towards men
and women, I might add."

The Church of Scientology may get even more than just the name and phone
numbers. Two hundred seventy boxes of confidential files on 1,200 groups
tracked by the Cult Awareness Network may also be handed over.

The boxes contain information on groups like Hare Krishna, the Church of
Universal and Triumphant and the Unification Church of Sun Hyung Moon,
as well as Scientology and other religious organizations.

The bankruptcy may put all the files, which also include the names of
people concerned about family members inside the groups, on the auction
block, available for sale to the very groups the Cult Awareness Network
once monitored.

Kisser called that prospect appalling.

"If the bankruptcy court lets those records be sold," she said, "they
are basically taking people's worst fears, which they've confided in the
Cult Awareness Network, and selling them to the very organization that
created the trauma and that pain."

----END OF QUOTE----

You will find the full article with links here:

    http://cnn.com/US/9612/19/scientology/index.html

Best regards,
Andreas Heldal-Lund
http://home.sol.no/heldal/CoS/

CAN Mirror Page Index





Re: CAN: It's Role in WACO. [Michael Reuss, 31 Dec 1996]

From: mreuss@rmi.net (Michael Reuss)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.support.ex-cult
Subject: Re: CAN: It's Role in WACO.
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 06:48:51 GMT
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> Bernie wrote:
>> mreuss@rmi.net (Michael Reuss) wrote:
 
>> You ducked the hardest question in my post, so I'll ask again.
 
>> What do you think Leo Ryan's visit to Jonestown has in common
>> with Zenon P.'s posting of the NOTS?
 
> I don't follow the Zenon story, since I am not interested in
> such things.

I'm a little surprised at your disinterest in Zenon P's. current
activities, but I'm becoming less and less so all the time. The reason
I'm becoming less surprised is because I've seen your crusade to infuse
your own limited sense of morality into the debate over what's bad about
Scientology specifically, and cults generally, spiral downward into an
illogic that seems clearly influenced by the conditioning and
brainwashing that accompanied your past cult involvement.

For the record, in pedigogical fashion, let me tell you what Leo Ryan's
investigation visit to Jonestown has in common with Zenon's posting of
the NOTS.

Both of these events brought external attention into situations where a
cult and its leadership desired to maintain secrecy. In both cases, the
cults strongly object to the loss of secrecy because they know it's one
of the prime conditions necessary to maintain devotion and obedience
within the group. Jones' removal of his adherants to a remote jungle in
South America was intended to remove his actions and his influences from
the public eye, which he knew would be criticized heavily had they
remained in the bay area. He knew that this constant challenge would, in
time, challenge his authority over his "flock." Leo Ryan's visit was
stark and probably distressing evidence to Jones, that he would never
fully escape from the scrutiny and condemnation of the public, and that
his megalomaniacal control would always be subject to the challenges and
criticisms of reasonable people.

While I do agree with you that we need improved law enforcement
education to mitigate the mayhem that occasionally happens when such
cults are confronted for suspected illegal activities, we must never
give up the right to challenge cults whatsoever, simply because to do so
would risk mayhem. Sometimes we are faced with choosing between two
forms of mayhem, the mayhem in which cults are stopped from further
expansion, or the mayhem involved in allowing them to expand. Critics on
a.r.s are also faced with this dilemma all the time. I told Kim Baker a
long time ago that it is more important to me that prospective raw meat
is discouraged from joining a cult than for me to gently and kindly
educate already committed cult members into a new lifestyle. While I'd
like to do both of those things, I simply don't know how.  I do believe
that I can assist with the former.

Ending cult secrecy, thereby ending the conditions which allow harmful
cult conditioning to take place, is on balance, a good thing. It allows
the citizenry (the raw meat) to make an educated choice about with whom
they wish to associate and it helps people avoid cults like the People's
Temple (Jonestown), The Branch Davidians (Waco,Tx), Aum Shinri Kyo, The
Way, Scientology, and other cults like those started by madmen such as
Charles Manson.

Your contention that exposing the secrets which promote cult control is
more harmful than allowing secrecy to survive unchallenged, is
ridiculous. It is not the fault of the exposers if a cult group decides
to commit mass suicide to avoid legitimate criticism. The fault for that
decision lies clearly and solely with the group or perhaps more
accurately, with the leader which has promoted such a paranoid and
fatalistic mindset in his uncritical adherants.


> I know however that the brutal investigation of Ryan did help in
> the tragic outcome that ensued, even if he is not the first
> responsible in what happened.

That's hilarious. I've always thought brutal investigations implied
isolation, beatings, brainwashings, and other forms of coersion. Did Leo
Ryan's investigation commit any of these acts? I think not.

Bernie, your blindness on this issue is staggering.

But since you are so hot for a more enlightened approach to handling
cult confrontations where mayhem is a likely outcome, perhaps you should
logically soften your absolutist condemnation of CAN. It was they, after
all, who recommended against the feds making the final confrontation
with the Davidian cult. While their advice was ignored, I would think
you would applaud them for their understanding. You've never thanked CAN
for giving that advice.

--
Michael Reuss
Honorary Kid

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