From news-central.tiac.net!news-in.tiac.net!news.gte.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Thu May 1 07:21:22 1997 Path: news-central.tiac.net!news-in.tiac.net!news.gte.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: dkeith@xenu.best.com (Ex Mudder) Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,misc.legal.computing,comp.org.eff.talk,nl.scientology,de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology Subject: On Copyrights, Scientology, ISP's, the 1st amendment, and Moral Cowardice Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 08:30:29 GMT Organization: The ARSCC (there is no ARSCC) Lines: 230 Distribution: all Message-ID: <33705260.7827691@nntp1.ba.best.com> Reply-To: dkeith@best.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dkeith.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/16.390 Xref: news-central.tiac.net alt.religion.scientology:168025 misc.legal.computing:7239 comp.org.eff.talk:13478 nl.scientology:5701 de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology:3919 Long rambling discourse ahead... Can any of you lawyers in the audience comment on the elegal things I bring up? Based on the Probate filings, Scientology does not own clear title to the copyrights. However, under the US system, that is something that can be argued, not something that will slow down, speed up, or derail the case. In other words, even if RTC doesn't own these things, people can still get decided against (fines, injunctions, etc) while the ownership is sorted out. In addition, while an ISP can refuse to act based on the confused evidence, under the US court system it would take at least a year (and a million dollars) just to get a legal decision that would get them off the hook. One year is the least amount of time for the ISP to file, the judge to rule, and the case to be appealed. It will likely be longer, and there it perhaps a 50/50 chance of the claims against the ISP eventually getting dismissed prior to trial, summary judgement, whatever. (assumption - Clam litigation costs about $1 million a year, and takes 5-10 years, on average) Given that, I can understand why my ISP told me to stop - as much as they might like me, they aren't going to spend at least $1 million defending my speech. As for the Intellectual property issues. I was tip-toeing around the fair use, etc, defense for a year, until I learned that Scientology does not even own these things. I don't know about you, but when I discovered that this wasn't a religious persecution / fair use issue, but purely a religious persecution issue, with copyrights being a convenient excuse, I got mad... and now I want ot get even. The fact is, Scientology is using IP to prevent competing religions from forming, and to hinder other people from opposing their position. The former was STATED in RTC's own filing. As for the latter, try this: If I say that Scientology is Bad, I am entitled to my opinion, but I won't persuade all that many people. If I say that Scientology is a Dangerous UFO cult, people in the cult will say "no its not *I've* never seen anything like that", and again I will lose the argument. If I hold up OT 3 as proof, I will be shut up - either by people signing over me, refusing to comment, being called a liar, and if I persist long enough, sued. Or how about this example? I tell you that "Scientologists are trained to believe that they have the spirits of murdered space aliens not just infesting their bodies, but 2-3 feet out from their bodies" Would you believe me UNLESS I showed you the NOTS issue? (NOTs 7, top of page 2 on clambake) (rumor is the Clambake NOTS go down on Friday) If I don't show evidence of Scn's beliefs, I get ignored. If I try to provide evidence of Scn's beliefs, I get shut up - either by them talking over me, suing me, and threatening my ISP until I get shut down. And in the US, this is legal. People have noticed that Scientology was able to survive Hubbard's death, while most charismatic personality cults don't. I have seen some speculation of why this is so, including the possibility that this has something to do with the usefulness of the Tech. I disagree. Scientology has managed to survive its founder's without falling apart due to the actions of the US government. They have been propping it up, primarily through the IP laws. To start with, after Hubbard went "off lines" after his wife's conviction, (*) took over the cult and chased out the other people - like Mayo. Mayo, Scott, Vein, etc tried to set up their competing, cheaper, friendlier Scientology based cults - and were sued into silence. if you want Hubbard Tech, you have to give yourself up to Scn, or go underground and find a squirrel group. And said group will also be sued into silence if they get too big. Compare this to, for example, the Protestant reformation (I'd use the Mormons or Quakers or Muslims, but I think this is better known to most people). The RC church, in the 1400's was corrupt, money hungry, and had a tendency to dispose of publicly and without sorrow any opponents - Granted, on a much grander scale than Scientology. (FWIW, I'm related to defendants of the Waldensians and the Cathari). A variety of dissidents broke away and started their own cults - some survived (Lutheran) and some died (Anabaptist). In response, the RC church started cleaning up its act AND lost much of its power as more groups splintered off. I believe that w/o the monopolistic nature of the IP laws, Scientology would have splintered apart - competing groups, defectors spreading the word of the real beliefs, etc. Scientology has been able to use the US legal system to prevent this from happening - and use their secure US base to inflict this on others. Secondly, when Scientology defeated the IRS, they got the US Government to actually SUPPORT THEM, and give them rights significantly greater than every other religion. for example: The IRS sends letters to foreign governments at the behest of Scientology - "these is a real religion" The IRS given Scientology's purely commercial outfits tax exempt charitable status. Have you ever been to a Christian reading room? The Scientology equivalent is not only completely tax exempt (property, sales, and income) but buying these books is a TAX WRITE OFF for the complete amount you paid. Ask your local Christian bookstore if they can do that. In addition, the IRS granted Scientology to declare any subsidiary organizations tax exempt. They get a newspaper - tax exempt charity! Join Scientology and never have to pay taxes. Groups like the Roman Catholic Church and the Mormon Church only WISH they could declare their commercial and property holdings tax exempt. Anyone have any idea how much in taxes they'd be able to get out of, if they had Scientology's tax exemptions? And, of course, as a result of this decision, the State Department has been publicly whoreing (sp?) for the cult. On to the 1st amendment: The 1st amendment has 6 clauses. In these copyright disputes, the Free Speech and Press exercise clauses are balanced with the IP clause through the Fair Use doctrine. However, as I showed before, these are also being used to stomp on the establishment and free exercise clauses - if you want to practice your religion, you have to pay Scn for the privilege. And if you want to set up a competing establishment of religion, they will use the courts to shut you down. (I discussed how the US Government gave Scientology a preferred religious status earlier, a vioaltion of the current interprtation of the establishment cluase). In addition, Scientology has been using IP laws in an attempt to stifle free association. Both in regards to physical association, like pickets or getting together to make fun of Scientology's secret shit, and virtually, in their attacks on this news group. This newsgroup is protected from Government interference by the assembly clause, IMHO (no, Bill, that doesn't mean I can argue 1st amendment violations in you rmgroup something, it means I can if the US government or courts do the equivalent. And no, I don't think this argument will help child porn groups), and RTC is using the copyright laws to stifle that. Fortunately, the net is more resilient than book publishers or media outlets, but from what I have discovered, most major ISPs have to spend money every month dealing with clam claims - such as Zippo getting bitched at for having this shit on their server. And finally, as Keith Henson should know about, the final clause is the "right to petition the government for the redress of grievances" He wants to provide proof of potentially deadly medical fraud to the government, and Whyte told him he couldn't - he can just allege it to the FDA, not provide proof. And if the FDA wants the proof, they can try to pry it out of Scientology legally. Good fucking luck. (fortunately, again because of the nature of the 'net, FDA already has several dozen copies from anonymous sources). So Scn is busy using the Federal Courts to trample over every aspect of the 1st amendment. And I won't even get into their abuse of the 4th amendment as in the Erlich raid. I hope that is specific enough for you rules lawyers out there - Scientology may not be subject to the Constitution / bill of rights, but the federal courts they are using are - or at least should be. So, all in all, I think Scientology does not deserve their copyrights. In addition, given the recent probate filings, they don't even own them in the first place. Cute, huh? They are stomping all over out 1st amendment freedoms asserting property interests they don't even own. Any wonder I've been pissed for several weeks? I'm just glad I deleted some of my more vehement rants. Now, I wish to oppose Scientology, and believe I have a good case for civil disobedience - for religious reasons, even! Not than I can claim that copyright infringement is a religious sacrament w/o getting slapped down, but I can argue that as Plaintiff claims these are religious documents, I can claim they are as well. and I doubt that Bob would mind if I claimed ridicule of all religions is a sacrament... However, if I try to use the 'net to spread the word, I get shut down. I could get around this by hopping ISP's the way Steve Winter does, posting this stuff until I get kicked off, but I'd rather not - besides which, I don't have the money. Or I could use up anonymous remailers posting the things, until they get shut down the way Anon.penet.fi was - but I'd rather not do that either. I could encourage 100 other people to post and host this stuff, like they did in the Netherlands, but I don't think that would work either - the ISP's would not rally, they would dump 100 subscribers. Hell, it would be cheaper for the ISPs to put up $500 for every claimed infringement than to fight it. I can try to convince others, like the EFF or my elected representatives, to intervene, but this relys on the actions of another, and would take years in any event. Or I could try to interest the media to cover this, but they are even more frightened of the clams than the ISPs are. (yes, I tried) I could pass out disks at local meetings or street corners containing these documents, but that would reach a limited number of people, compared to the tens of thousands who keep an eye on this newsgroup. So I am stuck. How can I hurt the church any more than I already have? I could get sued, but I don't want to drag my ISP into it, so I can't use the net. No ISP can survive a Scientology lawsuit, and I really doubt that all of them will band together to fight unless they are forced into it, perhpas by having every member of the ARSCC (1) putting up mirrors of the clambake secrets. Of course, if this happened, the Clams would sue alleging a RICO conspiracy, upping the stakes from simple contributory copyright infringement. Not that the ARSCC will do anything I tell it to - they won't even tell me where the San Jose office of their legal team is until I get sued! I can continue spreading the word, pestering various people on and off the net, but anyone can do that, and its getting unsatifying. I want to hit those religious fascists where it hurts! A picket or a few disks won't cost them too much (tho every little bit counts). Does anyone out there have an idea I could use? One that allows me to avoid the moral cowards who would get in my way (or be forced into my way, the way RTC forces ISPs)? One that would be praiseworthy, and work despite the fact that I am pissed off (and thus less credible and prone to doing stupid things) and fighting a conspiracy that very few people believes exists? (Zenon did a GREAT job on that front). Anyone? Keith Bennett (1) The ARSCC does not exist -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzHskLwAAAEEAL+bChY4lUryAKAzIt6J33/2+/j8rw6tOsNCUwUnEBE6hri8 ZG2KyZ6wrzkUHPvIaLg4Y5yy7KaH7YIRHBfXvMAZ/laGUjetBm38odfd48MxRrgi FtD14M8GiySP49/H2QICXoShD4BDyCbwRI8iTZdTFODCeQNZPD7m4NVi4DKdAAUR tCJELiBLZWl0aCBCZW5uZXR0IDxka2VpdGhAYmVzdC5jb20+ =LwDy -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----